Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

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franklin411
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by franklin411 »

Oldranger:
Thanks for the tip about Sugarloaf, and I'll take you up on it!

Rlown:
I'm not the leisurely type I guess, but that aside, I want to see the high country (the really rugged stuff you can only see 20 miles in and 10000 feet up. I tend to recoil from lower altitude hikes because you've seen one lake you've seen them all). I looked for shorter routes and it looks to be impossible without a hike of 40-50 miles. My friend has 72 hours max to do this, so that means 15 miles per day.

Tim:
Ya, we'll have to see what happens with the snow--my main concern (aside from the normal/expected weather wild card) is that there will be too much snow on Elizabeth Pass. I'm not so concerned about it slowing us down. If it slows us down, then we just have to push and grind that much longer to get out that day. Painful, but if we did get to EP in 2 days, it should be doable. The mileage I listed was based on us starting at the Lodgepole parking lot and returning there on foot, so any shuttle action would just be gravy.

Honestly, I'm not very comfortable with the pictures I see of the north side of Elizabeth Pass with snow on it either. The trail is pretty faint on Google Earth. Would there be anything to be gained by reversing everything and starting from the HST, over EP from the south, and descending into Deadman Canyon? Maybe it's time to get a GPS.

I'm sure I sound pretty stubbornly married to this plan, folks, but I do appreciate the input! Originally I wanted to do Mineral King, but the Marmot Menace scared me off, and besides I already reserved a campsite at Lodgepole.
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The hermit
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by The hermit »

Ive never backpacked in europe but the sierra are challenging in the best conditions. If you dont truly know your partners abilities you should have options in case 15 miles is too much. Ive had people bail halfway through a trip so its better to just keep your options open .no one can predict conditions that far out. P.S. 3 days is not enough to backpack the sierra in my experience, ends up being a death march.still a blast! Maybe just prepare you for longer trips.
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by RoguePhotonic »

Honestly, I'm not very comfortable with the pictures I see of the north side of Elizabeth Pass with snow on it either. The trail is pretty faint on Google Earth. Would there be anything to be gained by reversing everything and starting from the HST, over EP from the south, and descending into Deadman Canyon? Maybe it's time to get a GPS.
Well you would probably have less snow going up the South side but it is much steeper. That whole trail on that side is an ass kicker.

This shot shows what it can be like with total coverage:

Image

But as you can see it's mostly smooth climbing. If you were post holing however that can be horrible. In 2012 I climbed up the Cloud Canyon head wall and at times it was thigh deep snow where I had to literally crawl on my knees to get up.

This shot Is from June 23rd 2012:

Image

I'd imagine by the end of May that is was a good coverage of slushy snow.
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by Wandering Daisy »

If you found too much snow on Elizabeth Pass, you could just turn around and go back out the way you came in. Not ideal, but since it is not likely this year to be a big problem, I would not call it a deal breaker.

I agree that Tablelands is not a good route for people who have minimal off-trail experience. I have been there early season (4th july normal snow year) and melting snow over the talus was hard - lots of post holing and certainly slow enough that 15 miles a day would not be possible. Also agree that asking Rangers will not get you accurate information, only over-conservative "not possible" reactions.

I usually access Deadman and Cloud Canyon from Roads End (Cedar Grove) over Avalanche Pass -made it to the Ranger Station in one day - a bit burly but do-able. Lots of elevation gain - not for those who have only hiked in the flat lands.

Deadman Canyon has HORRIBLE mosquitoes at hatch. This year, you may hit this unpleasant event late May.
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by oldranger »

72 hours max? from e coast? Going over 11,000 ft el., 50 mi. Early season, shakey snow conditions. You are the kind of people I had to bail out when I was the Roaring River Ranger. Sorry if I am a little harsh but your criteria, from my experience, suggests a significant probability of a bad outcome. I certainly hope you are not planning on asking for help simply because it becomes apparent that you will not meet your deadline. Note that there will be no ranger out and about that earl in the season.

Mike
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by franklin411 »

**wasn't able to get to this thread...been recarpeting my parents' house, which hasn't had new carpeting since the 1960s. It wasn't so much pulling out old carpeting and putting in new. It was more like sweeping up the pulverized remains after ~50 years of use!**
RoguePhotonic wrote:
Honestly, I'm not very comfortable with the pictures I see of the north side of Elizabeth Pass with snow on it either. The trail is pretty faint on Google Earth. Would there be anything to be gained by reversing everything and starting from the HST, over EP from the south, and descending into Deadman Canyon? Maybe it's time to get a GPS.
Well you would probably have less snow going up the South side but it is much steeper. That whole trail on that side is an ass kicker.

This shot shows what it can be like with total coverage:

Image

But as you can see it's mostly smooth climbing. If you were post holing however that can be horrible. In 2012 I climbed up the Cloud Canyon head wall and at times it was thigh deep snow where I had to literally crawl on my knees to get up.

This shot Is from June 23rd 2012:

Image

I'd imagine by the end of May that is was a good coverage of slushy snow.
Thanks for the pics, which speak a thousand words! It looks like if there was a lot of snow by the last week of May, it would be pretty visible from Roaring River and we could make our decision about pressing on/turning back while we're still miles from the pass, right? If we decide to go for it, we're planning on camping at the north base of the pass and tackling it first thing in the morning. That should give us firm snow, but hopefully not too much ice!
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by franklin411 »

Wandering Daisy wrote:If you found too much snow on Elizabeth Pass, you could just turn around and go back out the way you came in. Not ideal, but since it is not likely this year to be a big problem, I would not call it a deal breaker.

I agree that Tablelands is not a good route for people who have minimal off-trail experience. I have been there early season (4th july normal snow year) and melting snow over the talus was hard - lots of post holing and certainly slow enough that 15 miles a day would not be possible. Also agree that asking Rangers will not get you accurate information, only over-conservative "not possible" reactions.

I usually access Deadman and Cloud Canyon from Roads End (Cedar Grove) over Avalanche Pass -made it to the Ranger Station in one day - a bit burly but do-able. Lots of elevation gain - not for those who have only hiked in the flat lands.

Deadman Canyon has HORRIBLE mosquitoes at hatch. This year, you may hit this unpleasant event late May.
Thanks for the info...hadn't even thought much about the mosquitoes! I'll have to keep an eye out for this years' skeeter report.

I kinda want to start at Road's End, but at the same time I like the idea of being able to start and end at Lodgepole. More services at Lodgepole and I figure more people around there so the car would be safer. It's going to be a rental, but still.

Is Cloud Canyon much different from Deadman? I didn't consider Cloud Canyon because it would take a longer hike to get there, but maybe if Elizabeth Pass turns out to be a clear washout (weather, snow, or whatever) and we have time on our hands, we could take a quick peek by hiking towards it but not thru it, if that makes sense.
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by franklin411 »

oldranger wrote:72 hours max? from e coast? Going over 11,000 ft el., 50 mi. Early season, shakey snow conditions. You are the kind of people I had to bail out when I was the Roaring River Ranger. Sorry if I am a little harsh but your criteria, from my experience, suggests a significant probability of a bad outcome. I certainly hope you are not planning on asking for help simply because it becomes apparent that you will not meet your deadline. Note that there will be no ranger out and about that earl in the season.

Mike
Nah, we have about 72 hours max for her to be out of internet access so she can check in with her class. I think it's best to plan for the best feasible hiking conditions because this is all going to be put down on a permit application that will be faxed in 3 months before the actual date. Everything could work out fantastic or we could end up spending the weekend in a Motel 6 in Fresno due to a freak storm. How things turn out is impossible to know, but I do know that we need to fill out a form and send it in starting the end of the week.
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by oldranger »

You are not likely to have a problem getting a permit that time of the year. I certainly wouldn't get one now unless they will actually send you the permit which I don't think they will. You will have to get your permit the afternoon before you start or the morning of your start. You will not be able to see the upper end of Cloud Canyon, Elizabeth Pass until you get to Upper Ranger Meadow, about 7.5 miles above Roaring River Ranger Station. (no Ranger in May). Snow this year at high elevations is likely to be very unstable due to the shallow snowpack.

So you actually have less than 72 hours for your trip because you will have really limited internet access in the park.

Mike
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Re: Planning for Late May Trip: Rae Lakes Loop or Deadman Canyon

Post by AlmostThere »

franklin411 wrote:
Is Cloud Canyon much different from Deadman? I didn't consider Cloud Canyon because it would take a longer hike to get there, but maybe if Elizabeth Pass turns out to be a clear washout (weather, snow, or whatever) and we have time on our hands, we could take a quick peek by hiking towards it but not thru it, if that makes sense.
No, it doesn't make sense. I think a look at a map and how the terrain is laid out might demonstrate how "quick peek" doesn't factor into it.

When you are going up Deadman it is not straight - the terrain becomes apparent as you hike up it. Cloud is going to be the same. Straight lines rarely happen in nature. These are glacial valleys, and they aren't going to reveal their treasures all at once. You cannot for example see Deadman Canyon from the top of Elizabeth. You have to hike down to the point where the trail crosses the headwall of the canyon to actually see it. And then you are only seeing the top third - the rest of the canyon reveals itself as you hike into it.

The turnoff to Cloud is at Roaring River, and you won't get to Cloud from Deadman - it's possible but dangerous and only for the mountain goat types.
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