Day hiking with overnight gear

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commonloon
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

Post by commonloon »

"When requested, any person camping, intending to camp, or permitted to camp within the Yosemite Wilderness must provide proof that they are in possession of a bear-resistant food storage container allowed for use in Yosemite. "

Well, that is as clear as mud. Let's say I'm exiting at Tuolumne Meadows and started off the day outside of the park and outside of any other bear can zone (e.g. Mammoth). It sounds like if I can reasonable assert that I don't intend to and in fact, won't be camping in the park then I don't need a bear can -- and my Ursack packs so much easier ;-) I had kind of heard this, but I've heard stories about hikers getting ticketed for not having a bear can.

Can anyone comment on this? Sorry if this a little off topic. It just came to mind.
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AlmostThere
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

Post by AlmostThere »

gdurkee wrote:
and included hiking with a full pack, tent, sleeping bag, pad, a bear canister and a stove -- with no permit and no intention to sleep in the backcountry.
That said, I still stand by tempest in a teapot. In fact, over 45 years, the only people claiming 'day hiking' with full gear are you and another guy from Sequoia Kings some years ago. No question in my mind he was going to camp and was scamming the system, assuming I had to actually see him camp and could get away with it (he did...).
From his post a couple posts up: I didn't have a permit for where I was but did have one for that same day for a different trailhead -- the trailhead I was dayhiking toward.

I think this might actually be called "starting your trip from the wrong trailhead." The ranger didn't cite him. But I think that the definition of day hiking vs. backpacking is really the issue. Can you day hike to your starting trailhead, on another trail? Because I think that if you enter the wilderness with a backpack to get to the starting trailhead on your permit you are in fact backpacking, not dayhiking. If you are hiking along the road which is outside the wilderness boundary, that is not the case -- you are traveling toward a trailhead, ostensibly the one you are permitted for, to start your wilderness trip.
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AlmostThere
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

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commonloon wrote:"When requested, any person camping, intending to camp, or permitted to camp within the Yosemite Wilderness must provide proof that they are in possession of a bear-resistant food storage container allowed for use in Yosemite. "

Well, that is as clear as mud. Let's say I'm exiting at Tuolumne Meadows and started off the day outside of the park and outside of any other bear can zone (e.g. Mammoth). It sounds like if I can reasonable assert that I don't intend to and in fact, won't be camping in the park then I don't need a bear can -- and my Ursack packs so much easier ;-) I had kind of heard this, but I've heard stories about hikers getting ticketed for not having a bear can.

Can anyone comment on this? Sorry if this a little off topic. It just came to mind.
I think that the tendency is for rangers to assume that if you might be camping where they are mandatory, you need a bear canister. Instances where the permit takes you where there are bear lockers, they will still rent you a can based on the premise that the lockers might be full - the judgment call is not based on whether you will camp in Yosemite, or camp in can-mandatory areas of SEKI, or camp where there are lockers, but on the potential that you may camp where there is no locker and canisters are mandatory. They have no way of knowing where you will camp, and sometimes you don't - if you sprain an ankle are you going to continue injuring it or stop early? Any number of things can influence where you camp and why it might be different than where you planned to be.
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

Post by wildhiker »

I think the original poster is being a bit coy about motivation or circumstance where you would legitimately dayhike with a full backpack with all camping gear, so let's posit an actual example.

Suppose I thought it would be cool to hike from Saddlebag Lake east of Yosemite Park, into the Hoover Wilderness, over the cross-country pass to Upper McCabe Lake in Yosemite Park, and then back to Tuolumne Meadows via Cold Canyon and the PCT. So I get a wilderness permit to enter the Hoover Wilderness from Saddlebag Lake for let's say a Tuesday. I drive up to Tuolumne Meadows on Sunday and camp in the normal car campground. Or maybe I get there on the YARTS bus. I'm going to end up at Tuolumne, so I don't want to drive over to Saddlebag Lake. Or maybe I don't have a car. So on Monday, I walk the trail from Tuolumne Meadows up the Dana Fork, across the road and up through the Gaylor Lakes, and then cross-country into the Hall Natural Area on the Inyo Forest and ending up at that walk-in campground just off the Saddlebag Lake road below the lake. The next day, Tuesday, with my Inyo Forest Hoover Wilderness permit in hand, I walk the short distance up the road from the walk-in campground to Saddlebag Lake and start my backpacking trip.

In this scenario, I am dayhiking from one trailhead to another with my full backpacking equipment on Monday just as a way to transport myself from the ending trailhead to the beginning one, and maybe because I like all the scenery along the way. Would a Yosemite ranger who sees me in the Gaylor Lakes basin cite me? Should he?

-Phil
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Scouter9
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

Post by Scouter9 »

My short answer is, Yes.

You're in a bear canister zone, carrying food and camping equipment and a simple, bright line test is: do you have the food in a canister, yes/no? No interview, no explanations, no promises that you won't get tired or change routes, no mandatory LoJack trackers or shoulder implants required, etc... Simpler for hikers, simpler for Rangers, simpler for Yogi and Boo-Boo.
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

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If you look like you're staying overnight even if your intention is to dayhike to your starting trailhead, you're going to have some explaining to do. It's up to the ranger. I probably wouldn't do it because I wouldn't want the hassle. Also, if everyone did that, then it would be difficult for the ranger to know who is going to camp overnight without a permit and who is just passing through.

One time, I was in Desolation Wilderness on a long day hike. It was the middle of the afternoon and I ran into the ranger. After saying hello, he looked at me and asked me straight out if I was camping. I thought it was strange he asked me, since all I was carrying was a small day pack with hardly anything inside. I'm guessing he'd caught some backpackers trying to outwit the system by setting up camp without a permit and then going for a day hike. Given his inquisitiveness, I assume if I was carrying a full pack and made the argument that I was day hiking, I definitely would have gotten a citation.
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longri
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

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gdurkee wrote:
and included hiking with a full pack, tent, sleeping bag, pad, a bear canister and a stove -- with no permit and no intention to sleep in the backcountry.
Gotta say ... without the explicitly stated cause of just having the gear, I'd tend towards a citation based on intent evidenced from your equipment.
George, I think you've provided a pretty clear answer to my original question: It's not technically illegal according to SEKI regulations but you (and by extension other reasonable backcountry rangers) would probably cite me. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks. I'll make sure and have a permit for any dayhikes I do with overnight gear in SEKI.

gdurkee wrote:Sorry, no one does that and I've run into tens of thousands of hikers over the years. I'm open to good stories that make sense but what are you doing with all that stuff for camping if you're not, you know, going to camp?
That you haven't encountered this before doesn't actually prove anything except that it isn't very common and/or people do it in deceptive ways (like I practiced for a brief period).

It's discussed every season by JMT hikers. Some of them want to start from Yosemite with an initial dayhike to Tuolumne. So they only need to get a permit starting in Tuolumne -- unless they want to carry a full pack along the way. The other group are PCT hikers who would like to take a side trip to Yosemite Valley. It's only about 22 miles, a lot less if you start elsewhere on Hwy 120.

But Yosemite isn't the only place where point-to-point dayhikes are of reasonable length.

gdurkee wrote:That said, I still stand by tempest in a teapot. In fact, over 45 years, the only people claiming 'day hiking' with full gear are you and another guy from Sequoia Kings some years ago.
A tempest? There's no drama here, I just asked what the rules were. It does have bearing on a relatively small number of people but that number is greater than you believe.
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

Post by Wandering Daisy »

The Tuolumene -Yosemite route seems to be the most likely route with the day-hike/permit issue. There are some work-arounds. For PCT'ers, there are several other trailheads within reach of the Tuolumne shuttle bus. Just get a permit from one of the less used ones. Or, take the YARTS bus to the Valley if that is what you want to see. For JMT'ers, I would think some pre-planning could solve the problem. If it is the start of your trip, get a family member to drop you off in the valley with your day-pack, then spend the day sightseeing in Tuolumne and meet you with overnight gear at Tuolumne. For your one-way trailhead-to-trailhead trips, you could set up your camp at trailhead 1, drive to trailhead 2 and day hike back to 1. Anyway, a bit of out-of-the box thinking and creativity may be needed.

As for Desolation Wilderness, that is the only place where I regularly run into backcontry rangers who actually ask to see permits. The fee system pays for this. But so far, there is no bear can requirement, so that cannot be the basis for "overnight" camping.

I think the "tempest in a teapot" is that the current permit system does not match some of the newer wilderness activities. With the "fast and light" trend, overnight gear is not so heavy that cross-wilderness trailhead-to-trailhead routes are quite feasible. This is really neither day-hiking or overnight backpacking, but something inbetween. Trail running also now is popular, and although totally legal without a permit, crowding and impact on trails can be significant. Unfortunately I also see a lot of "rules do not apply to me" attitude nowadays. The more we ignore the rules, the more the rules will be tightened, so the more we will be inclined to ignore them. It is a viscious circle. I can see the day when Whitney Zone type day-use permits and quotas may be considered for many more high-use areas in the Sierra. And add to this the incredible traffic issues on all the roads in Yosemite and funding cuts to National Parks. I wish I could think of solutions, but I cannot.
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

Post by Hobbes »

Because it is so dynamic and diverse, California represents the vanguard for many movements and programs. Yosemite fills a similar role from a parks & wilderness perspective as the tip of the spear, encountering the first wave(s) of changing public use dynamics. The spear of course being the growing masses of people seeking to get outdoors.

It's pretty easy to quote CFRs, notices & directives, but someone - boots on the ground - has to actually be the face of enforcement. The environment rangers find themselves in today is different than 20 years ago, and will change that much more in the next 20. This suggests that (all) rangers are going to have to become increasingly more LEO and less (friendly/helpful) ranger. How many people fit that kind of profile? It seems a bit contradictory; actually, almost diametrically opposed personality types.

Last Xmas, we camped next to a seasonal LEO NP ranger in Joshua Tree and spent a night socializing around our campfire. He typically rotated between Everglades in the winter and Yosemite during summer. He rarely spent time in the back country, as he filled the LEO position in the Valley. He was super mellow & friendly, so it's interesting that he had to "turn on" the hard-ass personality at whim.

He was also qualified for equestrian duties, which (a) made his job somewhat valuable; and (b) provided him with good insight about human behavior. He told us a story where he was sitting on his horse at the intersection by the market on a busy summer day talking to another LEO foot patrol ranger. People were walking by scowling at the foot patrol LEO (typical civilian behavior IMO), but were smiling and coming over to pet his horse.

Talking over beers with a guy who has to take abuse on a day-in day-out basis - like any cop (yes, they signed up for it and get paid) - I find it interesting that park management and/or the public (as discussed here) seemingly dismiss or downplay what is actually happening where the (boot) rubber actually meets the road/trail. This trend line represents the future, not an anomaly, so we can expect to see YNP set the tone other regions will end up being forced to embrace.

PS Peter - Our other camping neighbor who joined us that night was just finishing a 20 year stint. He was 39(!) and currently stationed at 29 Palms supervising door-door village training. He was planning on retiring to a small place in the Ozarks and becoming a pot farmer. He still looked pretty bad ass, but his demeanor had certainly mellowed over the years.

It was fun night, because coming from an area that presumes some unknown people "do the hard work", it was interesting getting a glimpse of the grounded personality types from the mid-west (both were from OK) who actually pull it together.
Last edited by Hobbes on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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maverick
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Re: Day hiking with overnight gear

Post by maverick »

Here is the answer from Yosemite's brass:
As always there is a much longer back story here. In essence this practice has become a work around to our Wilderness permit system that has been employed over the last several years because of how difficult it is to get a permit.

We will review the current wording during this years update to the compendium.

Stay tuned for more.
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