Deciding against heroism...

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Wandering Daisy
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by Wandering Daisy »

You bring up a good point about groups. I do not think we have yet talked about WHO makes the turn-around decision in groups. I have been in several situations where the group was split on whether to continue or retreat. If the situation is dire enough to consider turn-around, it is dire enough that splitting the group is likely quite unsafe. Unorganized groups that I participated in had a rule of thumb- there had to be 100% buy in to continue, whereas, retreat had to only have a majority. The go-getter may be disgruntled, but that pales in comparison to making a person take a risk they are not willing to do.

I was under the impression that commercial guides made the final decision, albeit, they unfortunately has consider the amount of money clients have paid to summit. On the other hand, if a client dies, that is not great for a commercial guide service's reputation.

There also the "do nothing" option, if you are not in imminent danger. That is, to set up camp and decide later, perhaps when conditions are better, or after all have had a good rest. I have done this before, where something looked dangerous and impossible at the end of the day when I was tired, and really could be dangerous if I did not have solid legs and a good mindset. Next morning it did not seem that daunting. And with stream crossings, morning levels often are less than in the afternoon.
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by mrphil »

ironmike wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:37 pm Many times I think that guided clients make decisions way above their proficiency level assuming that the guides will save the day or make the impossible possible.
To their credit, Sherpas do make the impossible possible. If it was up to the clients to set routes, establish camps, shuttle supplies, and make the ultimate clear decisions on going forward or back, the grand total of people summiting in a season would be 10, and the rest would be frozen bodies still standing in the queue. But you combine someone with an ego and a $100k+ to throw at it, a guide service that lives or dies by its reputation based on how many of its clients summit, and a man that relies on his tips for getting his climbers to the top in order to feed his family and keep his job, bad things happen.
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balzaccom
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by balzaccom »

When I owned a sailboat, I always allowed anyone on board to decided that he or she had had enough. We would turn around, because we were out there to have fun, and if someone wasn't having fun, then the exercise was pointless. I try to follow the same guidelines when I am hiking. But then I was captain of the boat. I am not always captain of the hiking group!
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by rightstar76 »

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Last edited by rightstar76 on Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by kpeter »

1) I became ill (mid grade fever) on one trip and ibuprofened my way out. Fortuantely I was not that deep in the wilderness and made it out in a day, but I had to stop and rest frequently and remedicate to keep the fever low enough to be able to hike safely. When my fever spiked I had some dizzy spells. I could have just holed up in the tent but the wilderness is not a friendly place when you are sick and I wanted civilization. Would it have been safer to hole up? I probably did not make the right call--the chances of falling when dizzy should have outweighed the allure of the creature comforts of a motel.

2) Last summer I tore my meniscus and cut out two challenging cross country routes and stuck to the main trail. This was the right call. I had a very enjoyable trip, but my right knee was not strong enough to hold my balance in difficult terrain, log jams, rock hopping, etc.

3) In 2012 I came uphill from LeConte to the first crossing of Dusy Creek on the way up to Dusy Basin, hitting it at about 5:00. I was about 80% of my way through a South Lake--North Lake--South Lake complete loop. The creek was roaring, I was tired and wobbly, and I was not sure I could safely cross. I set up camp, had a delightful evening, and by the next morning the water was significantly down and I was stronger and I waded across uneventfully. I made the right call this time too. What would I have done if the water was too high to cross in the morning? Probably camp there another day or so to see if it receded, explore upstream, etc.

I believe the expression that Balzacom may have been searching for is "Discretion is the better part of valor."
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by balzaccom »

Kpeter--Ha! Not searching for it, I know that expression, but certainly referencing it.
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by Wandering Daisy »

Discretion is subjective, a very individual decision. And I would not say valor is the goal. Some people simply like to push the boundaries. There is a fine line between not pushing enough and pushing too much. The climbers I know who have pushed the boundaries, never saw it as "heroics". They were well versed in the risk, mitigated it as much as they could, but took that step beyond what they had previously done, into the unknown, advancing the sport and making first ascents.

I have done some very stupid things, (you know, shaking in your shoes, saying "please mountain gods, I made a BIG mistake, but if I live through this, I will never do it again!) That is how you learn judgement. But there have been times where I chose to push beyond, glad I did, but would not make it a regular habit because the odds can finally catch up with you. However, I would never second guess someone's decision to turn back. If I am with someone who wants to turn back, we turn back.

My husband and I went in to climb Charlotte Dome. About three pitches up, I just got this vague feeling that tragedy was just around the corner. Not very logical, but I told him I did not want to continue. We rappelled off, left a bunch of expensive gear for anchors, and he never made me feel bad for it. Years ago backpacking with my daughter when she was 17, I choose to avoid some nasty brush by climbing on ledges above. She freaked out, so we dropped back into the brush and thrashed our way through. At the end of the day, we had to cross a creek right above a waterfall. She is my water baby- great swimmer, absolutely at home in water. Me, I hate water and particularly stream crossings. There was no alternate route. She went first, and then talked me across. It is all give and take, and teamwork.
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by kpeter »

Wow, that expression does seem to stir up some feelings. So here is how I interpret it.

First, the dictionary synonyms:

Discretion: circumspection, carefulness, caution, wariness, chariness, guardedness
Valor: bravery, courage, pluck, nerve, daring, fearlessness, audacity, boldness

So "Discretion is the greater part of valor" means, I think, that "caution is necessary to do something that is bold." It is an oxymoronic expression.

Discretion will mean something entirely different for one person than for another. To exercise discretion is to know your own capabilities well enough to challenge your limits without going past them. If you don't push your limits you will never do anything that is "bold" (for you,) but if you don't go about it with caution your boldness could become foolhardiness and get you hurt (or worse.)

So...plan an amazing trip that lets you see new things by pushing your limits (there is the boldness!), but then plan, plan, plan to make it as safe and reasonable as possible (there is the circumspection.)
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balzaccom
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by balzaccom »

Plan all you want. "The adventure begins when something goes wrong.". Yvon Chouinard
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Re: Deciding against heroism...

Post by Pietro257 »

I don't think "heroism" is the right term here. There is nothing heroic about taking risks in the wilderness. I think people who take unnecessary risks disrespect the wilderness. The wilderness is beautiful but unforgiving and completely indifferent to hikers and mountaineers. We should always remember that.

When deciding what to do in groups, always side with the group members who are most tired, most dehydrated, or ill. Never break up a group under any circumstances. That's my credo.

I had a "turn back" experience last summer on Rae Col (http://highsierratopix.com/community/vi ... ol#p122987). We wanted to take the shortcut over Rae Col to Sixty Lake Basin without having to drop down to Rae Lakes. Halfway up the col the weather started to turn and we realized it would be harder than we thought to get over the side. Turning back was an easy decision -- and the right one, as it turned out, because it started hailing an hour later.
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