When people break the rules

[robow8]

Also genuine question, why aren't you supposed to camp within 200 feet of a lake?

Got my Ranger talk for my Yosemite permit on Saturday, and the Ranger said that one reason was to enable access to the water for the wildlife. Makes sense, but you know how those Rangers are.

[iHartMK]

I think this thread should have been titled, Hi, my name is Karen and I would like to speak to the manager.

[Npike]

This is the type of snarky response I’ve gotten from people in the past. Has nothing to do with “wanting to speak to a manager, has to do with respecting principles put in place for a reason. Thanks for your thoughts though

I think this thread should have been titled, Hi, my name is Karen and I would like to speak to the manager.

[Flamingo]

"hey that site has a great view but if a ranger sees you, you might get a ticket because it's illegal to camp that close to the water."

^^ I love this approach, thanks @dougieb. I'm going to use this. It signals to the offender that I'm on your team, but your behavior is bad.

[levi]

On the two trips I've taken this summer, I've noticed more large groups camping together (5+ tents) as well as more boisterousness, screaming/yelling at night, violation of no-fire rules. Haven't necessarily seen more trash, trash always bugs me every season. I'm about to go on a trip in Inyo NF and I'm hopeful being in a quota-controlled area will feel better than, say, how Emigrant Wilderness seems to be lately. In all cases where I see people pushing the bounds, or breaking rules, I usually bite my tongue, but I really like the suggestion of warning people that they might get cited.

The 200ft rule (which I've also seen as a '100ft' rule in the past) never made perfect sense to me. There have been times where I'd circle an area by a lake or stream for quite some time, seeking a suitable, plant-less patch of ground for my tent, and the only spot that wouldn't disturb the environment was close to water or trail. On my first multi-night trip (Rae Lakes Loop) in 2016, my partner got very altitude sick and I decided we'd camp a few feet from the trail next to (above) Upper Rae Lake. It was the first obvious campsite we stumbled across after she got sick (vomiting, so red alert), she needed to lie down ASAP, and luckily she recovered by evening. Following that rule to a T would've felt very risky (at that point I was carrying her pack for her). (Backup plan was find the ranger at the outpost at Middle Rae).

Another example is the nice campsite at the outlet of South Guard Lake. It's maybe 50ft from the lake but only 15ft from the outlet stream. The rest of the environment is fragile-looking alpine plants and small talus, none on flat ground.

Curious if others feel this tension, between following the letter of the rule (200ft) vs the spirit (LNT/minimal impact)? And in extreme circumstances, vs personal safety (I'd imagine people emergency bivy in violation of rules, including permits, occasionally).

[Harlen]

Working in the State Parks, I traveled about with rangers a lot, and my observation was that the rangers who got the best results were the ones who were into educating law breakers, rather than ticketing them. For example, trespassing in wildlife sanctuaries; dumping trash,; filling buckets with protected Pismo clams, crabs, etc.; or folks playing soccer inside signed and fenced-off breeding habitat for a Threatened bird species-- no matter what the infraction, Ranger Dave would first befriend the perpetrators, thank them for coming to the Park, compliment them on something, and only then patiently explain why there were rules against whatever they were doing. I really believe you won't change anyone's mind unless they like and respect you first. The corollary of course is that if they think you're a jackass, they may be inspired to do even worse next time.

This was good lesson for me, as I am kind of a jackass by nature.

[cgundersen]

Great suggestions folks.......and, even getting way off trail does not get you away from scofflaws. On a recent trip well within the Yosemite borders , but way off trail, a guy came strolling along with his rambunctious dog. Certainly, there were going to be no rangers ticketing him back there, but really? And, I love dogs, but the rules are there for a reason (like, dog versus wildlife?). And, Ian, are you bragging again? Cameron

[Harlen]

Ian:

... I am kind of a jackass by nature

cgunderson:

And, Ian, are you bragging again?

Nope, here's the best thing about me--my better half:

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[balzaccom]

Trail cutting is another behavior that is incredibly selfish but probably based in ignorance more than anything. I don't think most people understand that trails had to be built in many cases, and when they make their own path, they threaten the integrity of the trails and require more maintenance. I have a feeling many people think that the trail is there for people who need it, but if they are able to handle the steepness of going straight down and cutting the switchbacks, then there's nothing wrong with making your own way. False.

I've thought about wearing a shirt (mini billboard) with leave no trace principles on it. Or handing out hankerchiefs with that printed on them. Maybe REI and gear manufacturers can start printing them on all of their gear the same way osprey does it on the inside of their packs.

I am particularly sensitive to trail cutting because I volunteer a couple of weeks each summer to repair trails. Now I feel like I own them all!

And your suggestion of a bandana with the LNT principles on it is genius! Who has a contact at REI?

[dave54]

The 200 feet from water rule has several reasons behind it. The human and kitchen waste is one. Most here would walk the proper distance, but many would not. Especially for a midnight pee call. Another reason is soil compaction and erosion. In desert areas, you must be aware the waterhole you are camped near may be the only water within several miles. Your presence, even at 200 feet, may spook wildlife away from their only water source. I suspect many sanctioned campsites are within 200 feet because people will camp there anyway, and establishing a site is maintaining some control over an undesirable but inevitable situation.

I recall reading a research paper many years ago that asserted cutting switchbacks actually consumed more energy than following the trail. Researchers attached ergometers and sensors to test subjects.

The noise on the trail makes me laugh. Several years ago I saw a group of hunters on opening weekend of deer season. Three guys were riding in the back of a pickup, rifles at the ready, scanning the surrounding woods. The radio was blaring loud, and the pickup had a bad muffler that roared. They stopped to ask me if I had seen any deer, because they hadn't seen any all day. I could scarcely control my laughter. I wonder why they hadn't seen any.... I just about have my grandkids trained to not make noise while hiking and use hand signals to communicate. We see more wildlife that way.