When people break the rules

[bobby49]

If there is a lake or a stream, then it should be obvious where the water is, and how far you must camp back away from the water's edge. If it is a high snow year and there are snowy or wet meadows surrounding the lake, then you need to stay the distance back from the meadows.

[rgliebe]

When I first started backpacking, the rule in Yosemite was to camp 50 feet from water and the trail, which I thought was reasonable. Most of the established fire rings at that time were within 50 feet of the water, but since then most of them have been dismantled. About a decade later the rule changed to 100 feet. My problem is that about 1/4 of the lakes/creeks I camp at have zero flat space to put a tent down after you back up more than 50-70 feet, or you end up way too close to the trail, which is usually about 100-150 feet from the shore as it passes by the lake. Usually almost half of the lake has a high bank of rocks or a cliff around it, and the side that doesn't have it has the trail going through. Most of the lakes have inlets/outlets, so staying away from them cuts down on the options even further. I think that staying as far as you can from the water and making sure you don't pee or dig a hole for your solid waste within 120 feet of an area with flowing or standing water is most important. As for wildlife, they can access the lake/creek from many different directions usually, including some of the areas that aren't flat enough for a tent. Most of the lakes I'm at these days are high enough and remote enough that there isn't much wildlife around.

I've noticed an increase in the last decade of mostly younger backpackers clearly breaking the rules by camping within 15 feet of the water. One couple was so close I was surprised their tent didn't get wet from the small waves that hit the shore. Most of these people know what they are doing is a violation and aren't receptive to anyone who challenges them, so I generally leave them alone to avoid a potentially violent confrontation.

[SSSdave]

To further fuzz the issue, how do you understand it when the language says "camp x far from water" in the early season, or high snow year, when there's water everywhere?

One of the issues I have with NFS or NPS service wilderness ethic policies is that they have been simplistically dumbed down to lowest intelligence levels of the general audience. That follows of course from those many that are confused by most simple things. In this Internet era when communication is occurring at much higher levels, those Homer Simpson strategies should be modified as they are just making things worse. It is sad that so many authorities throughout society still subscribe to that mind set.

Obviously the persons that created that policy did not expect visitors would camp whatever required distance from any water but rather implied such to mean where people would be obtaining drinking water. And that rules out a lot of other water if interpreted with common sense. For instance well off trails where I more often travel, I never have issues camping beside no name warm shallow ponds because I avoid using them for water sources as by mid summer tend to be swarming with micro organisms (mostly harmless). That noted, along a trail such ponds are more likely to be used by those with water filters, so I would not site camps near such.

While snow is melting all over landscapes and ephemeral streams are flowing everywhere, again common sense points to ignoring such streams that are sure to be dry in a few weeks. Those are not places that giardia etc are going to be able to establish because it is all too brief.

Another situation one will find are where trails follow along larger all year streams and rivers. What one will often find is established well used camp spots from decades of use are mostly right beside such streams. As though the NFS/NPS is ok with such without any explanation as to why. Again common sense is that the volume of water flowing down such streams is so great that anyone contaminating those waters with a few micro organisms would within a few seconds dilute such contamination to a level it would be impossible for someone to become infected anywhere down stream. So one might wonder at what level is a stream flow too low for that to be an issue? Well if one needs to wonder, err on the conservative side though most of the time, especially early summer when streams run high that will be obvious.

Consider what happens when it thunderstorms and everything is wet all over with small streamlets about. Does that mean one cannot camp anywhere? Indeed YOU cannot just like you cannot camp on snow because that is also water sir, so please go back to your room and watch cartoons on tv.

[thegib]

Thanks davidsenesac for clearing that up.

[dave54]

No LEO will get out a tape measure and give you a citation for camping 199 feet from a lake. They (and you) look at the intent and purpose of the regulation. It is impossible to follow every regulation and LNT practice to the letter. LEOs know this.
If the only suitable campsite is next to the shore, then camp there, making an effort to be as LNT as practical.
When encountering others, know when to speak up, and know when to let it go. No one wants a karen in the backcountry.

[wsp_scott]

From the SEKI Wilderness Planner
• Camp as far from water as possible, never camp within 25 feet of water. Always try to camp further than 100 feet from water.
• Camping within 25 feet of water is only allowed in previously well-established campsites.
• Camp on durable surfaces (rock, sand, dirt, snow, etc.) Do not camp on vegetation or in meadows. Use previously impacted areas

I think that the goal is to encourage people to use existing campsites. So something like Lower Rock Creek (just there a couple weeks ago) there is an obvious site near a bear box and right next to the creek. It is way better from a LNT point of view for people to keep using that obvious site vs. make a new one further from the creek.

[levi]

I think some of you may get a kick out of this. I rewatched the Inyo NF "7 principles of Leave No Trace" and either my memory's gone bad or they added a principle "Be considerate of others" that essentially tells people to "not camp directly next to others" and "speak softly." (They also state the distance from water rule as "camp at least 100ft from water where terrain permits, and no closer than 50ft from water.")

The video felt a bit more informative than similar ones I've seen in the past. I know each national forest/park has slightly different rules and recommendations, but that last principle... speak softly... I love it. Good work Inyo NF!

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 05695.html

[John Harper]

No LEO will get out a tape measure and give you a citation

I had a game warden check me out in Yuma a few years ago during dove season. There was a barn across the field, and he asked me if I knew the law about having to stay 1/4 mile away. I acknowledged I knew the law. He asked me how far I thought I was from the barn. I looked at it, and said, "I'd say just over 1/4 mile."

So, he produced a laser rangefinder, raised it to his eye, and took a reading. He looked at the meter, shook his head, and showed it to me.

441 yards, just 3 feet over 1/4 mile!!!!!! He just laughed, handed me my license, and left. He could not believe I was that close in my estimate.

John

[blaybelay]

I had a terrible experience last year while climbing Langley up New Army. The wife and I got to camp at Long Lake early, maybe around 1pm. We decided to leave Langley for the next morning so we grabbed a sweet pre-established site about 50 feet from the lake. Easily the best spot on the lake. About an hour later, while we are relaxing three horses carrying a bunch of stuff arrives with 12 people in tow. They begin to setup within 15 feet of our site. I think... Okay, there aren't a lot of sites up here and there are definitely very few spots for such a large group. So I let it go.

That day they were all relatively quiet. On occasion they would cross our campsite heading to the lake within 5 feet of the wife and I hanging out reading, talking etc. Even though there was a clear path that would have taken them around us... I let that go as well...

Then the real BS happens. I awake at 6am to some dingus blasting "Lovely Day" out a boombox for all the valley to hear. At this point I've had enough. I admit, my tempter got the better of me. I threw on some shoes, got out of the tent and angrily walked up to the individual with the boombox. I said under no circumstances is this okay and asked why he was doing it. His reasoning? "I wanted to wake my buddies up so we could get ready for the hike." I was floored. I told him he needed to turn the music off and that not everyone at the lake was part of his group and if he wanted to wake people up he needed to go tent to tent and wake them up individually. He apologized and turned the music off.

The moral of the story in my eyes is that some people are just dumb as rocks. He never once considered that other people would be inconvenienced but his crappy music. Eventually the wife and I made it up and down Langley and got back to camp. The whole entire group avoided us from then on, which I was totally fine with.

[owen]

Also genuine question, why aren't you supposed to camp within 200 feet of a lake? I assume this rule was created under the assumption that people would also use the bathroom and wash dishes nearby their campsite, but if you walk far from the lake to do these things, I'm not exactly sure what the issue is.

From what i've heard from rangers is that it can interfere with wildlife access to water. It also often tramples on meadows. Also it kind of just blocks the views of the lake. It may be true that the only developed sites are close to shore. Thinking of Susie Lake in Desolation Wilderness. But often it's just sheer laziness and/or unwillingness to explore the area. For example, 1000 Island lake has a number of beautiful large sheltered and legal campsites up the slope on the northern side of lake. Yet every time i'm there there's a number of people who camp right off the trail in the meadows down by the lake and interrupt the view. Same with Lake Aloha. Some lovely sites up above the lake, all totally empty, while folks camped 10-20 feet from the trail in fragile meadows on the lake shore. I find it sad that folks hike 7 miles into the backcountry but can't be bothered to walk a few hundred feet to find a legal campsite away from the trail. People are just utterly unimaginative and afraid to leave the trail? In the past I've taken the tack of recommending good legal campsites to people just arriving. But when people camp on meadows I feel enraged and just try to ignore it. It says it on the damn permit so even if you're inexperienced you are kinda also oblivious.