When people break the rules

[Npike]

So I took a 1 night hike out of Sabrina a few weeks ago and was left pretty disappointed by the amount of people who either 1) didn’t read the rules before they got their permit or 2) completely ignored them. I consider myself a “rule follower”. I may think that some rules are silly, but understand they are out in place for one reason or another. It’s really frustrating to see so many people that felt the need to camp literally 5’ away from a lake or on the actual trail itself. Both of these rules were broken by several people of a party at the outlet of blue lake, and I pretty much witness some from of this on every trip I go on. So my question is- when you see a blatant disregard for backcountry LNT principles, do you say anything? How have you been received when you have said something? I feel a certain sense of responsibility to “educate”, in hope that the rules were just not understood. Then again, I’ve been called out in FB groups, being told to “mind my own business”. Thoughts?

[rlown]

Well, a ranger came up to me and asked for my permit which made me drop my pack on the way up to Rafferty. Two women were there as well and asked to show their permit. Didn't have the permit on them.. Someone had to do the walk of shame a mile back to the car.
One was carrying a gun, but my friends and I thought it better to not say anything. Gun was hidden in the pack, but my friends saw it before I got there. A big no-no, especially in Yosemite.

[giantbrookie]

I don't say anything to such offenders because it is far more likely to result in ill feelings or worse, than to result in a positive change of behavior for the perpetrator. From my own side I don't need the aggravation or ill feeling from a confrontation with such persons when I'm in the backcountry and I do not have the authority to enforce anything, so I simply don't say anything.

[dougieb]

I really get worked up about this. I take it personally. I think one of the joys of being in the mountains is a feeling that I am escaping the mark of humanity, that I'm the first person to ever be there (knowing this is untrue but enjoying the feeling nevertheless.) So with this attitude, I am primed to be angered by those who blatantly leave their footprints in the landscape.

At the same time, I know I made mistakes when I started to spend time in the wilderness. I once washed a sardine can in a small lake and left an oil slick on the surface. My older and more experienced friend immediately yelled at me. I think back to that and shake my head. What a **** thing to do. Now I know better and I am very diligent about practicing leave no trace principles. I'd like to think that many of these bad actors simply need what I needed back then - a basic education. So do I educate people directly when I see rule breakers? Sort of... My approach has been to say, "hey that site has a great view but if a ranger sees you, you might get a ticket because it's illegal to camp that close to the water." It's a trick I've used to share the information they need to know but saying it in a way that doesn't make me sound like I'm talking down to them. It isn't a perfect approach but I don't know what else to do.

There are some people who know these things and just ignore it but I think many more are just ignorant about their impacts and could really use an education. I look forward to hearing others' thoughts.

[LMBSGV]

I don't say anything to such offenders because it is far more likely to result in ill feelings or worse, than to result in a positive change of behavior for the perpetrator. From my own side I don't need the aggravation or ill feeling from a confrontation with such persons when I'm in the backcountry and I do not have the authority to enforce anything, so I simply don't say anything.

That's an excellent summation of my attitude these days. The only times I've actually said anything is when the perpetrators approach me and if they're friendly, I might mention that camping that close to a lake or building a fire ring violates the rules. Otherwise, I try to avoid the bad actors by camping as far away as possible. I'm not a cop so there's really nothing I can do and I've given up trying to change anyone's behavior except my own.

[kpeter]

One way to do it is to say "I don't mean to intrude, but I saw a ranger give a citation to some campers who were too close to the water. I'd hate for that to happen to you...."

On another trip which I have recounted here before, I exited to the ranger station, reported the heinous behavior of a large group which I had witnessed, and a ranger was dispatched. He got there in time to document all the violations, including chopping down living trees at 11,500 feet for a bonfire 15' across. Something like 80 citations, and I had to be deposed later in the year.

[whttiger25]

I agree with you entirely, and especially when it comes to these high-congestion areas near the trailhead.

I do remember once early in ny backpacking days hiking a section of the JMT north over Mather Pass, looking for sites losing light above upper palisade lake and it being totally overrun with people everywhere. There were probably 8 different parties taking every possible spot, and we were the last there. We camped on either side of the trail, about 5 feet from it. But it was such a zoo there it really didn't matter.

We then head over Cirque Potluck and Knapsack, my first time doing any serious cross country. Since then, I avoid trails as much as I can.

[balzaccom]

We had two experiences like this recently. One involved a family playing music very loudly as they hiked along. I finally caught up with them to discover they were visiting from another country. I happen to speak their native language, so started talking to them in that language. After a few comments back and forth, I mentioned the music, and how it was not allowed. they were apologetic...and we parted friends.

On the same hike, despite many, many signs against it, I saw a young man short cut one of the switchbacks right in front of me. I was more confrontational on that one. I asked him it he'd seen the signs....and asked him why he thought there were so many logs and branches in the short cut. Just as I was finishing up with my tirade, his parents came along and repeated my words just about verbatim. grin.

[dougieb]

Amplified music is so obnoxious. It is as if people who do that don't care at all about the experiences of others. I have no problem asking people to turn it down. Fortunately I've never experienced that while backcountry camping but I certainly have while on the trail.

Trail cutting is another behavior that is incredibly selfish but probably based in ignorance more than anything. I don't think most people understand that trails had to be built in many cases, and when they make their own path, they threaten the integrity of the trails and require more maintenance. I have a feeling many people think that the trail is there for people who need it, but if they are able to handle the steepness of going straight down and cutting the switchbacks, then there's nothing wrong with making your own way. False.

I've thought about wearing a shirt (mini billboard) with leave no trace principles on it. Or handing out hankerchiefs with that printed on them. Maybe REI and gear manufacturers can start printing them on all of their gear the same way osprey does it on the inside of their packs.

[creekfeet]

When I worked as a ranger (interp nor law enforcement), I hated having to enforce rules as I'm not confrontational by nature, but more often than not people were just ignorant about the rules they were breaking, and were apologetic when I told them the consequences. Mind you I had no ability to actually punish violators beyond saying I would radio a LE ranger. These days the only thing I'll call people out on is dogs on trails where they're not allowed. I use the "If a ranger sees you..." approach that it seems a few others here use.

Also genuine question, why aren't you supposed to camp within 200 feet of a lake? I assume this rule was created under the assumption that people would also use the bathroom and wash dishes nearby their campsite, but if you walk far from the lake to do these things, I'm not exactly sure what the issue is. Is it a matter of erosion control, or simple aesthetics to other campers? It's always struck me as a somewhat strange rule given that it's pretty common for Sierra lakes to have NPS-established campsites well within 200 feet of lakes. Also when camping above tree line in rocky terrain, more often than not the only viable camping option is near the lake by the outlet stream.