Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

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BESON
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by BESON » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:13 pm

wildhiker wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:19 am
GriffHiker wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:51 pm
What would be the downside of keeping it online, but have the permits released the day before instead of two weeks out?
There is an equity issue with any permit system that is entirely online. It freezes out those on the "wrong side" of the digital divide: poor folks who don't have computers or smart phones (yes, such people exist) and a larger number of people with unreliable internet connections or skills. The fact that recreation.gov has a telephone option doesn't really solve this inequity when permits disappear within a few minutes. You can't complete a telephone transaction that fast (assuming you can even get through to an operator).

-Phil
Thanks for brining this perspective. I suppose I'd wonder, though, whether the current/old system might conversely advantage people who live close enough to the ranger stations that issue permits and can easily get to one 24 hours before the desired entry. Living in Fresno, that's been easy for me to do for an outing in Sierra NF with the Clovis HQ being so close. But someone living further away (e.g., in the Bay Area or LA) might have a harder time getting the permit 24 hours early as I can without also needing to extend their trip. Perhaps an online reservation system might take away an advantage of living close to a permit issuing station. But Phil's point certainly remains - an exclusively online system depends on being on a certain side of the digital divide. I wonder whether there'd be a way to accommodate both ways of making "walk-in" reservations - hold all of the walk in quota until 24 hours prior to entry date and allowing those to be issued via recreation.gov whether at home on one's computer or in person with the assistance of a person at the station desk who could complete the transaction for the person. That probably gets too complicated, though.


Brian






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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by ironmike » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:51 pm

Signed.

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by RSC » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:20 am

Signed.

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by maverick » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:34 am

Some good points made here on how this new system could effect all of us. :thumbsup:
Please include some of your comments in section below the petition, if the heads of the agencies read the detrimental impact that some of these newly implemented rules may have, the more likely they will reconsider their move to implement them.

Thank you to those of you who have recently signed the petition.
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I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by Wandering Daisy » Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:48 am

I do not sign internet petitions as a rule, so sent personal e-mails to the FS offices instead. Thanks for everyone keeping us up to date on this issue.

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by iHartMK » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:15 am

Signed and shared to my Facebook page.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by michaelzim » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:18 pm

With regard to some of the comments about distance, timing, and online access, they for sure affect me very directly.

- I do not have a cell phone/smartphone so cannot do any online stuff or get email notifications once away from my desktop at home.

- I live 2 hours drive north of San Francisco IF the freeway is not jammed! To get to my preferred (less air traffic noise) southern sections of the Sierra by far the easiest way is to go through the Bay Area. Avoiding the almost assured clog ups at 80 and Livermore requires me leaving at 4:00 am, as it can cut off a couple of hours from a traffic-jammed trip.
Getting to Bishop takes a day no matter what Google maps says.
Getting to Edison/Florence takes me around 9+ hours.
Getting to Courtright/Wishon takes me about 7 to 8 hours.
With stops and picking up walk in permit it's a long day, but doable to get to a trailhead in time and hike in to camp for the night.
IF I could even get a last minute "No Show" permit sometime after 10:00 am the day of a trip (presuming the 2 weeks of "W" permits got grabbed 14 days prior!) I could not leave until maybe 11:00 am if I really hustled and got the permit printed out OK, etc. That would have me driving into a traffic snarl big time and maybe arriving at the trailhead near or after dark...and totally exhausted.

So yes, online access, distance, and likely stress are a biggies for me if this new system goes into effect.

Michaelzim

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by paula53 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:50 pm

signed

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by c9h13no3 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:54 pm

Do I smell a mass trespass as our HST meetup this year? :D

"Hi Ranger, none of us have a permit because the NF system is terrible. So we're cleaning up trash here at Consultation Lake and spending the night in protest."
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by maverick » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:02 pm

Will now be addressing this petition to the Regional Forester Randy Moore only.

SEKI and Yosemite still seem to have their "walk-in" permits available:

Recreation.gov site states for SEKI:
A portion of the quota is available first-come, first-served for walk ups at the permit issuing station.

All quota season permits (reserved and walk up) are issued in person beginning at 1 PM the day prior to entry. No-shows are released into the walk-up pool (see no-show policies under "Fees & Cancellations" tab).
SEKI NP states:
At this time, we are also planning to resume in-person, “walk-up” permit issuance for the 2021 quota season. This means that a limited number of first-come, first-served permits will be available daily at select permit issuing stations in Cedar Grove, Grant Grove, Lodgepole, the Foothills, and Mineral King. Because of the pandemic, we are working on safety measures to make this possible while protecting visitor and employee health. Walk up permit availability will be subject to possible change if pandemic conditions necessitate to ensure visitor and staff safety.

Yosemite NP site states:
From approximately May through October, unreserved permits are available on a first-come, first-served basis beginning at 11 am on the day before the intended hiking date. All reservations (same day and next day) and same-day unreserved permits may still be picked up when the wilderness center opens for the day.
I have someone getting clarification for us about Yosemite, just to make sure.

The National Forests are the issue, and it seems that there is no consensus between them on how they will implement the "walk-in" permits.

Covid should not be used as reason not to have "walk-in" permits issued at a wilderness office or temp kiosk, these permit stations get nothing near the traffic that a grocery checkout clerk gets daily at a Safeway or Costco.
Professional Sierra Landscape Photographer

I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org

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