TR 7/13-21 Hoover-Emigrant-Yosemite lunker lollipop

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robertseeburger
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Re: TR 7/13-21 Hoover-Emigrant-Yosemite lunker lollipop

Post by robertseeburger »

What a great trip report. Great weather.
Best fishing TR I have seen in a long time.
And you got to do it with your daughter.
And you got in a couple of climbs. (Always great to do with fishing..change of pace)
A plus.
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Re: TR 7/13-21 Hoover-Emigrant-Yosemite lunker lollipop

Post by Dwwd »

Great trip report.

I especially like the route details from Dorothy Lake over to Mary Lake. Long ago for me, that was a trip with a memorable natural "ice sculpture" discovery as we traversed the boulder field after a night of rain, and slightly below freezing weather. In a shallow granite bowl, I discovered a small frozen fountain of ice pointing upward. The resulting physics lesson was interesting.

I am also so happy to see Dawn's smile with her fish. Memories that will never be forgotten.
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Re: TR 7/13-21 Hoover-Emigrant-Yosemite lunker lollipop

Post by Harlen »

Wow John and Dawn!

What a fine team you are. Congratulations Dawn for your success on the peaks; best wishes for many happy returns to the summits.

Lizzie and I have tried to read between your lines John, to glean more fishing expertise from the master spincaster. We get the idea about sinking and re-sinking the lure-- you gave me that advice before in your thoughtful PM-- but when you say "pumping," at first we thought that was to set the hook on big fish, but then later, it sounded like a method to reel in the fish? Lastly, I think we now know to take along some manner of landing net. I have lost many big fish at the very end. I wonder how to best use it?

You humbly state:
Being at the right place at the right time ( luck factor). I can't count the number of times when all theory points to success and I haven't done so well..... A bit of luck in terms of winging casts at the right time into a body of water never hurts and I think I have probably had more of that this year than most.
We think instead that your great fishing results are in line with the great karma you've gained by generously offering sage advice to the ignorant on everything from technique, to gear, and even judicious advice on locations. So you've earned your luck, if that makes any sense.

*as a side note, why does your storied strength training cease in the mountains?
I told Dawn that the bucket hauls were my replacement for the strength training I was missing on this trip.
There are endless wood "pull-up bars," and if you don't like sappy hands, you can lift large rocks and press them over your head. If that's not challenging enough, you might try hand-stand push-ups with rocks balanced on your feet... with the hand claps at the top of course. :nod:
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Re:"finishing" techniques for landing fish

Post by giantbrookie »

In fishing the High Sierra even the most experienced "lunker hunters" seldom hook fish big enough to really worry about how we bring in and land them. As a result we are commonly poorly prepared and we fail, possibly owing to some errors in technique and strategy. But, as you'll see below it isn't clear what the best technique and strategy is in these situations and we really don't acquire much experience owing to only rarely hooking fish in this size range. Anyhow I figured I'd put out some thoughts on this subject, because it's clear I have not demonstrated a mastery of "finishing technique" and the 2021 High Sierra fishing season may end up concluding with one huge fish lost while attempting to land it on each of three trips to the same lake
Harlen wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:19 am Lizzie and I have tried to read between your lines John, to glean more fishing expertise from the master spincaster. We get the idea about sinking and re-sinking the lure-- you gave me that advice before in your thoughtful PM-- but when you say "pumping," at first we thought that was to set the hook on big fish, but then later, it sounded like a method to reel in the fish? Lastly, I think we now know to take along some manner of landing net. I have lost many big fish at the very end. I wonder how to best use it?
Regarding the term "pumping", this is a technique used for reeling in really heavy or strong fish. The gist of it is to raise up your rod without reeling (commonly the drag runs a bit during this) as if lifting the fish, then reel as the rod drops, but nowhere during this process give slack line. The reason for this technique in contrast to simply cranking away (even as the drag sings) is to use the flexing of the rod itself to tire the fish. You most commonly see this technique used on big strong ocean fish--you can pretty much look at any video of someone fishing for tuna, yellowtail, etc. and see them bringing in a fish this way. Whereas I have used this technique for many years bringing in the very largest fish I've caught in the High Sierra, there is currently some debate between me and Lee over the efficacy of this method for High Sierra trout, and Lee has also questioned my "finishing" methods (see below on netting). The reason for this debate is my loss trying to land what was likely the three best fish (20" and thick range) on each of three visits to a certain lake. Lee thinks my pumping may have given fish slack line which led to their ultimate escape, however, at no time did I have anything resembling slack line on any of those three demoralizing battles and I'm pretty sure I had plenty of hard-pull moments during all three fights so that the hook(s) was(were) driven in as deeply as possible for the position of hooking in the jaw region for each of the three fish.

This then leads to an assessment of finishing technique because all three fish were lost after a prolonged battle and when preparing to skid the fish on to land or to net it. Lee is of the opinion that I lost those three because I didn't simply hurry up and hoist the fish instead of playing and maneuvering the fish to beach it or net it. Lee mentions the fact that he did in fact hoist his 2nd largest of his epic 4-fish run and successfully landed it, and this fish was a very beefy 18.5". This is taking a bit of a chance, though, given that we fish with 6lb test, and that fish was probably getting close to 3lbs. When one considers that the terminal knot strength will be less than the breaking strength of the line and the fact that one is actually accelerating the fish out of the water with the "hoist", it is easy to see why I don't try this myself with fish in that class. In using a net the easiest deployment is to have someone else use the net because you don't have to strike a compromise between your netting position and the position of your rod/rod tip. I netted Lee's largest one (19.75" and fat) which I hope was too large to tempt Lee to hoist had I not been there (although he says he would have in fact tried) and another of his "2nd largest" ones as well as his largest one on his 2nd trip back. Bringing a fish to one's own net is difficult and it is especially difficult to avoid slack line because you can control your rod tip position but you can't turn the reel crank when your other hand is holding the net. The key is to get the fish running toward the net because you want to net the fish as it heads toward the net. For either the beaching or netting operation, if the fish is truly large, I will wade a bit then steer the fish between me and the shore. This gives me one last line of retrieval (frantic dive) if the fish comes off.

What is the relative success rate of careful "finishing" technique versus rapid brute force hoisting? This is the debate Lee and I are having right now. For some fish the answer is obvious: With a 32", 13lb lake trout on 6lb test a hoist is not an option. Of course that fish presented other problems owing to the steep, rocky nature of the shoreline (no place to beach it) and the fact that it was way too large to fit in my net. The net did in fact help, though, because the final move was a partial-net-jump-throw-dive sort of operation (strength and agility training may have helped there). The debate over finishing concerns fish that weigh less than the breaking strength of the line, though. Note, however, that fish appear capable of generating greater force than their body weight. Most folks think about the swimming strength of super energetic fish. I've had my line snapped by a blazing run of a big golden and Judy was broken off by a sizzling rainbow run once. I'm pretty sure the golden that broke my 6lb line was no better than about 4 lbs whereas Judy's rainbow may have been 5lbs or better. A strong fish can also generate a lot of force with a head snap. It is for this reason that I don't have a super tight drag when I fish in places where there I think there are fish big enough to potentially break my line. For this reason I'm not well set up for "hoisting", either (drag would simply go out instead of lifting the fish out of the water).

So, would I have landed the three big cutthroat if I had hoisted them instead of messing around in the end game so much? I suspect they were too large for that and they would have broken my line had I tried (and I would have had to have tightened the drag before attempting to hoist). Another finishing issue is whether to tire out the fish and let it do a few runs or attempt to brute force it (Lee's recommendation). For big goldens and rainbows I think brute force is a bad idea, but large cutthroat don't tend to make those strong runs, so maybe maintaining a strong hooking force by brute force retrieve would help? On the other hand, the 3rd, and the largest of three large ones I lost fought much more like a big golden than a cutt and if I'd had my drag tighter I think I stood a good chance of being broken off. For all three the one thing I think I'd try "next time", should the opportunity arise, would be to wade out because my end game angles were poor (did not wade any of those three times). Finally, I suppose some thought should be given to landing strategies and positions before casting, but...

In the High Sierra how many times do we ever have a fish on that is so big that landing it is challenging? So we lapse into a mode of not thinking about it and then maybe we don't execute well in the clutch. For 2021 I'm 1 for 4 finishing with fish in the 20" class and the one success was a place with a nice sandy beach. Even there, the finish wasn't as easy as I thought because it was heavy enough that I needed to tighten the drag a bit to slide it onto the wet sand (ie fish was initially stuck in the sand and I was just pulling my drag out).
Since my fishing (etc.) website is still down, you can be distracted by geology stuff at: http://www.fresnostate.edu/csm/ees/facu ... ayshi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: TR 7/13-21 Hoover-Emigrant-Yosemite lunker lollipop

Post by balzaccom »

Good points all. I fly fish and use barbless (or de-barbed) hooks, so landing a fish is even trickier. After years of learning (read: failing all too often) I have decided that the best way to land these fish is to wait until they are tired, swimming near shore, and get them pointed toward the shore. Then heave/play them up onto the shore where they can be managed. It works sometimes.

As you note, it doesn't work on a rock shoreline with no place to beach a fish, but it does work if there is even a flat rock nearby that can serve the purpose. With barbless hooks, any toss of the head can throw the fly, so you need to keep tension on it---but I wouldn't try to hoist one of these fish up, because I am fishing with 2lb or 4lb test leaders.

They do call it sportfishing, right?
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Re: TR 7/13-21 Hoover-Emigrant-Yosemite lunker lollipop

Post by sekihiker »

giantbrookie wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:12 pm At the stream we took a hydration break. Dawn really enjoys being able to drink directly (ie instead of filtering) out of streams like this; I too have long considered this one of the pleasures of backcountry hiking.
The icy water is one of my favorite things, too.
The fish - WOW!
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