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"Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby rlown » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:25 pm

Rangers in Yose carry both radios and a Delorme.



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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby maverick » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:41 pm

Rangers in Yose carry both radios and a Delorme.


Yes, but they are NPS employees.
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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby rlown » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:46 pm

It becomes a personal preference on what electronics you carry after a certain age and some afflictions start to kick in. (I'm thinking 50ish.) Muir didn't have a choice; we do..
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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby maverick » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:22 pm

It becomes a personal preference on what electronics you carry after a certain age and some afflictions start to kick in. (I'm thinking 50ish.) Muir didn't have a choice; we do..


Russ, I agree with all that, but my reply was to post, where the person was saying that SPOT/Delorme devices could become mandatory.
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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby Wandering Daisy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:41 pm

Rather than mandating specific devices for navigation, I would prefer proof of navigational skills, if regulation is in the future. I just do not see this happening, because it really opens up the regulators to liability. Someone gets lost and dies, and followed the "regulations", then family sues.

A similar issue is dogs on leash. I hate regulations that require dogs be on leash, with the assumption that all owners cannot control their dogs. On the other hand, a regulation that requires the owner to be "in control" of their dog, is more reasonable. This was (not sure if still is) the regulation wording in Desolation Wilderness. Give citations to dogs that are actually doing something wrong. What I hate, is that once something becomes a regulation, it seem to always be geared to the lowest common denominator.

As with bear cans, I would think if the NPS required a GPS, then they would have to offer a reasonably priced rental and maintain their own service costs. That is not likely.

In some ways the liability and legal issues are a two-edged sword. The more you regulate, the more you are liable when things go wrong.
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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby mrphil » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:00 am

I think the railing at the top of Nevada Falls is a perfect example. For whatever reason they're there, barriers are intended as implicit warnings, and signs mounted to them stating the specific danger, explicit, not suggestions. It all really couldn't be much clearer to anyone that wasn't already suffering from some kind of cognitive dissonance disorder, or at least, an unhealthy degree of arrogance. If we try to protect everyone from having stupid hurt (protecting us from ourselves and the learning experience that goes along with our mistakes that hopefully keeps us from repeating them by coming away a little wiser for it), well, as a society, we end up stupid. Then we forever wonder what went wrong, why it did, and we immediately look for scapegoats, because we shouldn't have known better, oh no, we should've been protected from ourselves by someone that was an "expert" on things like cliffs, big waterfalls....
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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby Wandering Daisy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:23 am

The viewpoint at the top of Nevada Falls would not even be there if it had to be "approved" today. It is there because it is a historic feature. Same with Half Dome cables. Or Angel's Landing in Zion.

With kids nowadays growing up under "helicopter parents" and exposed to so much media where stupid acts have no real consequences, and general misconception that "someone" or "some government agency" must or even can protect us from ourselves or uncertainty in general; it is no wonder that there is a push to over-regulate. Nevertheless, I think the fear of this is overblown, because of the sticky legal issues and costs to the Park Service once you go down that path.

We really need to direct our fear and outrage at the push to privatize our public lands. To me, this is the real political "fight" of the future.
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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby limpingcrab » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:04 pm

All good arguments gdurkee, but they're still all arguments for regulations to prevent injury, and it's hard to say where they will stop. That's the big question.

I don't think it's that far fetched to imagine more rules to keep us safe in the mountains, especially after land managers keep losing legal battles that imply liability for the FS and NPS.

"It just snowed and it's dangerous and SAR is expensive, this area is closed until further notice."

Just last year they closed the Wolverton snow play area because it was too icy. Ya, they got tired of running ambulances up and down the hill, but it's still just another example of the way things are going.
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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby Harlen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:03 pm

And if you don't carry an avalanche beacon on a backcountry ski trip, you're just crazy.

gdurkee

... Or, you're traveling with an inexperienced dog who hasn't figured out how to change from transmit to receive. ;)
Last edited by Harlen on Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Keep Our Mountains Free. And Dangerous" from NY Times

Postby Cross Country » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:17 pm

Who here has been "trapped" under snow? I was trapped for less than 30 seconds in a snow drift. I almost couldn't get myself out. If I had gotten out 20 seconds later I would probably have died of suffocation. My experience gives me the opinion that a VERY small percent of people could be saved by an avalanche beacon.
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