Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

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maverick
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by maverick » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:51 pm

I like to give the local agencies some time to address the issues first, before involving politicians Chulavista.

Seems like Yosemite may not stick with what is currently on their website in regards to “walk-in” permits, still under consideration.

So are issue is with Inyo & Sierra NF, and possibly Yosemite NP.

Have talked to a person in Inyo, and was given a contact number, but the person has not called back, will wait till Wednesday. If Diana Pietrasanta hadn’t retired, I would have gotten a callback by now.

Also waiting on a callback from the NF Pacific Southwest Region Foresters Office.

Will now have to contact Yosemite’s Superintendent too.


For those of you who like the proposed online “walk-in” permits, because it suits your needs, I ask that think about your fellow backpackers/climbers, go beyond yourself, and think of the rest of us, who will not be able to get out because of it.

Many of us didn’t get out last season due to the pandemic, and then the wildfires on top of that.

Many of us at schools have worked thru the pandemic, also consider all the healthcare workers, food retail, and may other occupations that were deemed essential, and couldn’t get out.

We to need to get equilibrium back into our lives too, by immersing ourselves once again into the wilderness experience.

Those of you who know me, that if this was the other way around, that I would be doing the same thing, fighting for you to be able to get out enjoy the Sierra, because none of should be excluded from doing so!

Please support you fellow outdoors persons by signing the petition. Thank you.

:soapbox:


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I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org






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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by Wandering Daisy » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:28 pm

I do not buy that the permit system needs to "pay for itself". Do the other users of the national forests "pay for themselves"? One purpose of government is to use OUR tax dollars and provide services for the public in a manner that is inclusive to all citizens, rich or poor. Put the Forest Service budget against other large government programs and it is very small- perhaps the problem is that the FS budget keeps getting slashed. You either have a permit system, profitable or not, that preserves the wilderness experience and is inclusive and affordable to all citizens; or just dump the permit system entirely and eliminate the cost if that is your major concern (call this the "do nothing" alternative). Many FS wilderness areas do not have quotas or permits except for commercial use and seem to do just fine.

IF you choose to have a permit/quota system, it is the job of the Forest Service to make sure that each permit is given to those who actually use it. I see no way the proposed system can make all no-show permits available. I am not against quotas, but AM against denying access because the proposed quota system cannot work for those who want reservations AND those who want walk-ins. COVID should not define how we go forward; it will end. Vaccinations are happening. (Got my second shot yesterday- no bad reaction :thumbsup: )

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by freestone » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:12 am

Please, no more fees or fines, that's gasoline on the fire. What I find frustrating is that many people assume that the new system is doomed and will never ever meet their needs without giving it a chance to evolve, its the old saying of don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Again, For the trails that are gone in 2 seconds, parse them out and into a lottery, and the technology Is there to even do it with Walk-ins. Going to a Ranger Station to pickup a pass and listen to the same rules over and over (and gets ignored anyway) is such a huge waste of time for day 1 of the trip.
Short cuts make long delays. JRR Tolkien

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by rlown » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:00 pm

I still like the charge bigger for no-shows. That might put a damper on people who don't cancel reservations and make them not hoard.

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by mkbgdns » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:24 pm

you mean y'all like the pre-covid system cause it was Right and Just, or because suits your needs? c'mon. by "we will not be able to get out" you mean "we won't be able to get out where we want, when we want". check the availability for permits for Franklin Pass. walk-ups favor the well-off, who have the flexibility to up and go to the mountains on short notice. like me. we know how to work the system, and it's changed.

a lottery, with consequences for no-shows, although fair, probably isn't your cup of tea, because it doesn't meet your needs. cut the righteousness.

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by maverick » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:09 pm

walk-ups favor the well-off, who have the flexibility to up and go to the mountains on short notice


“Well off”, really, I wish. :lol:

Like some of us in the school system, or my backpacking friends who are in the healthcare or retail industry, are no were near well off. Some of our salaries would be considered middle class if we lived in Oklahoma for example, but not even close here in California, we barely make ends meet.

We don’t have the flexibility in our lives to plan 6 months in advance, it revolves around our jobs, kids, and family, it is these things that dictate when we can get out, not some mythical type of wealth, so yes, we rely on the pre-covid walk-in system, which again, was only changed because of the pandemic, not because there was some sort of wave of dissatisfaction or outcry for a change.😒
Professional Sierra Landscape Photographer

I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by markskor » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:25 pm

"We rely on the pre-covid walk-in system, which again, was only changed because of the pandemic, not because there was some sort of wave of dissatisfaction or outcry for a change.😒"
Well said Mav, couldn't agree more.

I just realized that, living my summers behind the TM Store, as an Aramark employee, I will not be able to just walk to the permit office, (maybe about a half mile away), and bag a last minute/ day-off wilderness permit.
Last time we were open 2019, we had no cell service, and no wifi connection...(but we did get daily newspapers?)...anyway, as it now exists, I cannot overnight May Lake or Townsley or ...(Insert any close Yosemite destination).
Sign the petition!
mark
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by mkbgdns » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:44 pm

nobody said this was changed because of dissatisfaction or outcry. straw man. IT'S COVID, and we all know it. I didn't say "well off" meaning "wealthy". a person who can backpack extensively without suffering housing or food insecurity is well off.

again, "barely making ends meet" (including yourself as "we") falls into the category of straining credulity to create sympathy for what you want. c'mon. it's fine to want what you want, and to express yourself. don't make it about the End of Western Civilization.

by the way, I like walk-ups, and have made the vast majority of my trips on that basis, and will welcome their return. or their non-disappearance.

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by michaelzim » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:00 pm

Ummmmm…let me see if I can summarize the biggest issues with the proposed 2 weeks advance “W” walk in quota and system:

~ Just like the 6 month permits once the 2 week “W” permits are posted they are likely to be gobbled up in minutes.
~ Thus none will be available online for short notice trips based on current Sierra conditions a few days in advance.
~ Anyone (or most) with a long term or quickly grabbed “W” permit will send in an “I confirm” email notice (or phone) to NFS within the 2 week confirmation window as why not?! This way they can keep the slot (or multiple slots) open until the last minute with no penalty.
~ Due to Covid there is no “show your face” to actually confirm whether a permit holder goes or not. No one will know.
~ The NFS will know about true “Cancellations” (unlikely for “ghost” overbooked permits) and those will be released into the system as they happen. However, how many of those will actually occur and be seen in time. I suspect very few.
~ The only “No Shows” that the NFS system will know about are those who do not notify with an “I confirm” call or email in that 2 week pre-trip window ending at 10:00 am day of the permit.
~ Only these “no notification” No Shows will then be released into the last minute walk in quota but after 10:00 am day of permit. “Pre notified No Shows" will not be, as the system assumes they are happily going to the trailhead.
~ As it stands there is no significant deterrent to booking multiple permits (whether long term or 2 weeks prior) and hoping that at least one of them will pan out. The financial loss of not using say 3 out of 4 permits v. the insurance of having them, is minimal = $6 and $5 per person for each permit. Cheap insurance IMHO!
~ As it stands there is no way these "pre confirmed but unused" permits will enter the system - at all. Not even at 10:00 am. This is in short a big bummer! And needs a fix of some kind.
~ Previously the 40% “W” walk in quota was held back until 24 hours before the trip/permit date and alleviated the above problems due to one’s physical presence being required to pick up the permit.
~ Thus the chances of getting a permit by those actually wanting to do trips very close to trip time was good.
~ No doubt previously there were No Shows for picking up permits at ranger stations but this “ghost booking” issue was not feasible.

OK, I think that is most of the points.

What we need (and quickly) is a step by step outline of how to alleviate over-booked permits and get a handle on the “wasted” No Shows. I know some suggestions have been made, like hefty deposits, but unless there is a “physical appearance” or signature required at a ranger station going in, I still don’t see how anyone knows if overbooked permits are used or not. Am I missing something???

If we can make a point form suggestion of how to solve this issue, I (or maybe Maverick?) will make sure it gets to the powers that be.

Best ~ Michaelzim

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by SSSdave » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:14 pm

Strongly support any Sierra Nevada backpackers signing the petition as is. Although it is less than ideal overall, it is a pragmatic balanced first step compromise that would remove the worst issue that those non-backpackers that changed the pre-pandemic process apparently had few inputs from more experienced backpackers in making or had an agenda. Instead they just considered what some influential new generation thru hiking enthusiasts wanted, carving up ever more quota permit territory from our older backpacker world. And then used weak pandemic reasons for arguments to shut down in person visits as though that could only be done inside buildings. Two weeks destroys short term planning that historically has been important for experienced climbers, fishermen, hikers, kayakers, peakbaggers, backpackers for avoiding foul weather, smoky skies, windy weather, unproductive conditions, etc etc and is susceptible to highly manipulated Internet abuse.

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