Tent Questions

[Wandering Daisy]

I just got the Big Agnes 2023 catalogue which brings up my quandary with regard to a new tent. I may just limp along this summer with my TarpTent Notch. I know others find trekking pole tents no problem to set up. This had not been my experience. Although once I get it set up properly with double stake back-up on four corners, it is bomb-proof. But last summer I nearly became hypothermic with the struggle to set up my tent. It was pouring down rain, the ground was totally saturated, tent stakes just fell out, rocks were a distance away, and instead of just popping up my tent and getting inside, I became totally soaked along with much of my gear by the time I got the tent set up. There now have been two times when the tent was almost impossible to set up, one in good weather which just meant inconvenience and having to move to another location, and the one above, where I really had little choice.

So, I am going back to a self-standing tent. I had an old Copper Spur that worked well, although it did not last very long. Big Agnes now has a new tent called the Tiger Wall. I have read some reviews that are not fond of this tent. Does anyone have this tent and what do you think if it? Also is the new Copper Spur essentially the same as the original?

The Copper Spur also comes in a bike-pack version. The bike-pack version is 3oz heavier, but I like the shorter pole idea and some other features. Do the shorter but more section of poles make the tent stronger or weaker or no difference?

[paul]

My Copper spur is about 3 years old, so probably very close to the same as the current model except for the awning feature on the fly, and I like it. Sets up nice and tight, and goes up easy. What I don't like about the Tiger wall is that it needs stakes in at two corners to just stand up. To me, with that much pole structure, you might as go all the way to a fully freestanding tent, like the copper spur. And yes, I am well aware that the CS needs stakes to get the vestibules set up, but in a pinch you can do without those, and/or you can get the thing up and get in, and then while your gear is out of the rain, get those two stakes in to deploy the vestibules.
As far as durability, I would not expect more than you got with your previous CS. These tents are built with such light fabrics that they just can't last all that long.
In theory, the shorter pole sections may not be as strong, based on the assumption that the joints are not as strong as the tubing itself; but even if that is the case in theory I doubt it will make a difference in reality, being a very small difference.

[michaelzim]

Daisy

Well, you have zeroed in on the same two tents that I have so maybe I can share a few cents of my experience with them.

~ I do not like using trekking poles so that ousted any options of trekking poles only tents.
~ After a few go arounds with a single wall tent and ridiculous condensation issues at minimal instigation, I got rid of that and am now sticking with double wall tents only. I will put up with a bit more weight to not have that issue.
~ I want light, light, light…so long as the tent materials are not so flimsy that it has poor durability.
~ I find the “single person” modern tents to be a total joke in terms of space. I don’t get particularly claustrophobic, but please. Spending a few monsoon days in one of those coffins is not in my DNA. Hence I got “2 person” sizes as consider those to be a roomy ‘single person’ for my reality.

As my “old tent” was a 6.5 pound REI Half Dome used for a decade I thought I had really scored when I got my Copper Spur HV UL2 in the fall of 2020. It came in at 50 oz. but my scale says it is 52 oz. with all my stakes and some extra guy-line.
Then there is the ground-cloth, which I made from Tyvek and weighs 6 oz. which is 1 oz. more than the Big Agnes version, but much stronger I believe (and free c/o my contactor son).
I use the ground-cloth as I look after my equipment and tend to keep it for a long time. Hence the total combined trail weight is getting up there at 3.6 pounds but I consider the Copper Spur to be my 3-season tent, as it has impressed me in every respect.
As you have one Daisy you know how easy it is to set up and how it can handle a fair amount of high wind especially if guyed out all around.
For snow and spring this is the tent I will take. Mine is now through two seasons of use and still looks new. No issues.

For summer and good 10-day weather forecast I wanted something lighter so did a lot of comparing. In the end I came down to Big Agnes again despite some close offerings from the more “cottage manufacturers”…where prices seemed a bit exorbitant, and weight differences once included their add-on tent poles and stakes made the weight comparisons less appealing.

The Big Agnes Fly Creek got mixed reviews and I too did not like the idea of a “front entry” only. The Tiger Wall had much better overall basics and was almost identical to the Nemo Hornet. I could not decide between the two on paper so got both of them and set them up on my lounge floor last fall.
The side by side comparison was clearly (to me) in favour of the Tiger Wall. It was just nicer overall though the violent yellow colour was not my favorite.
Again I am talking the 2-person versions in both the BA and Nemo. Weight-wise they are identical, in the standard UL versions.

So once I decided on the Tiger Wall I noticed that Backcountry.com had the “Platinum” version on sale during Black Friday week for 25% off. I had scoped out the Carbon version but was wary of the cracked/disintegrating poles reports. The Platinum Tiger Wall version was also a more pleasing colour but still had the DAC poles, etc. and was 4 oz. lighter, so I nabbed it.
I set it up on the floor and could not see any cheapening of materials or anything v. the UL2 standard version. Seems as tough to me in every respect but just lighter. The website says it weighs 36 oz. for full trail weight but mine comes in at 34 oz. as I took off the clips on the guy-lines so I could use slip knots instead.
With a Tyvek ground-cloth my total carry weight for this tent will be 39 oz. / 2.4 pounds, which is not too bad for a roomy, semi-freestanding, double wall tent.

Note though, I have not taken the Tiger Wall out on a trip yet so all this commentary is “untested” in the real world. I suspect it will not be as wind resistant as the Copper Spur and counter-intuitively I think one is meant to pitch it with the wider 2 cross-poles end facing the prevailing wind. Will have to see how that works out.

Hope this helps ~ Michaelzim

[Gogd]

I found pole durability is not related to number of sections, but to the gage of metal and alloys used in the tubes, the engineering of the joints, the geometry of the pole, and the forces the tent design imposes on each of the poles. If the joints are strong they will be more durable than the tubes, and less likely a failure point no matter how many joints there are. But if the joint design is jenkie it is more likely to be the failure point, even if it is the only joint on that pole. I prefer poles that can tolerate substantial bending with out snapping, and joints where there is a tight fit of the mating surfaces comprising the joint.

The subject of pole failure should be considered in the wider context of the likelihood of any given failure mode of a tent occurring. IMO the most common tent failure modes are WP coatings delaminating, and zippers. Second most common are failures at stress points somewhere on the fabric shell, such as gussets, tie off and lash points, and pole pockets. These are all mostly due to abuse or normal wear and tear or issues.

When poles fail it is usually the result of abuse (e.g. someone falls onto the tent) or clumsy handling issues. Sometime pole failures result from severe weather. If a tent gets subjected to enough wind or snow, something is going to be the failure point, but since the poles generally are matched to the duty rating of the shelter materials and design, such damage is considered the result of the shelter being subjected to conditions that exceed the performance expectations. Do consider: when the wind shreds the fabric shelter, the poles are probably also compromised - a folding lawn chair can be bent only so far before the tempered tubes develop micro cracks or fracture altogether; likewise if the poles snap, the shelter likely has seams that were stretched with such force that they are weakened, and sunlight can be seen peeking through every hole where the seam thread penetrates the fabric wall. Yet some shelters seem to survive the most severe weather. The North Face V series dome tents were known to fold almost flat in 60mph winds with no significant damage. The performance of the poles matched the performance of the tent fabric. But most tents will sustain failure, one way or the other, when conditions reach that level of severity.
Ed

[Wandering Daisy]

"When poles fail"... Yup- I fell on my tent once and bent to pole beyond repair.

[wildhiker]

I had the ultimate "pole fail" once - I lost them! In fresh snow that was still falling, on one of my few backcountry ski trips back in 1975. Didn't notice until we got to the next campsite that they had fallen out of my pack where they were wedged, separate from the rest of the tent, under the top flap. Fortunately, I was able to rig the tent using my skis and ski poles.

-Phil

[maxr22]

Following along closely. I have been using a 7x9 yama mountain gear flat tarp the past two seasons. Before this I had a msr hubba hubba 2person knockoff. The MSR is too heavy (especially since most of my trips are solo), while the flat tarp while great in theory is a real pain in the field. Looking for a nice compromise...

Flat tarp is 11 ounces on its own, but to be effective you need to have a very thin plastic groundsheet, at least 6 stakes (I bring 12, and I have had to use all 12), and extra guyline. That comes out to about 21oz's (18oz if you only take 6 stakes). That is before we are talking bug protection. If you can handle just a headnet, then my hat is off to you. If you have a proper bug net combined with the tarp then you are at 32 ounces total. Not too bad. You can squeeze two people under a well pitched A - Frame.

I've learned the hard way that a tarp with bug protection does not make the most sense. It is as heavy as many tents, while offering very little wind protection and is a terrible pain to setup above treeline. The last thing I want to do after hiking thousands of feet and 10+ miles is play construction laborer dragging rocks all over the place, that just end up sliding over granite.

I'll keep the tarp for lower elevation, late season, bug free, and perfect weather trips, but for everything else I'll need a replacement.

So I'm with you on finding a freestanding tent Daisy!

[Wandering Daisy]

Well, I limped along figuratively with the old TarpTent Notch, (and actually limped along with a bad ankle) this summer in the Wind Rivers. (I posted the trip reports in the Beyond Sierra forum if you want to read about it all). The Notch got tested for extreme hail- marble size! and survived. At another location it stayed up, but only with my help when I was hit with a 55-60 mph wind. The Velcro fly closings were blown open so I had to hang on to each side with out-stretched arms (painful!) until the wind passed. (The current Notch has gone back to zippers).

Still looking for a tent. Still want a free-standing tent. But I would like something sturdier than the Big Agnes tents. I am small so a 1-person tent is no problem for me. In fact, most tents are way too long. I do not use the vestibule much since I use my pack for a pillow, so I am wondering if I could do fine with one door instead of two. Nemo tents get good reviews, but how do they compare with BA tents with respect to longevity and sturdiness?

My old bivy de-laminated and my car camping tent (3-person) is literally falling apart, so looking to replace those too. I like a bivy for shorter trips when there are no bugs. Cannot beat a bivy for easy set-up. Or should I say no set-up needed!

[bobby49]

I use a trekking pole shelter of cuben fiber. I keep the main piece under 8 ounces. But then I added some mosquito net, superlightweight cords, titanium stakes, an extra door flap, and a floor. So, by the time I get it all together, it is nearly 16 ounces. I do not count the weight of the center pole, since that is my trekking pole used for walking. One good thing about cuben fiber is that it is 100% waterproof.

If I suspect that I will have normal ground for stakes, I can keep a set of ten down close to 2 ounces. If I suspect difficult ground, then I add several longer stakes. In a few seasons of use, I have had a total of one stake pull out.

For me, the way to get a foolproof pitch is to keep the outer edges down to the ground, at least on the windward side.

[mschnaidt]

I've been using Tarptent's Moment Doublewall for the last 5 years or so and love it. It's not freestanding in the configuration that I use, needing a stake (or rock) at the head and foot and uses an archpole instead of trekking poles. They do have an option for an additional crossing pole that makes it freestanding. I carry 2 additional mini groundhog stakes for the sides in heavy weather but rarely use them. It has been bombproof in hail, heavy rain and high winds and is very durable. Very quick and easy to set up. Much quicker than my hiking buddies and their BA and REI tents. Also reasonably priced at $299 and weighs 34 oz. Not ultralight but worry free in all conditions (so far).

The original Moment was a single wall. The Moment DW is a doublewall and a much improved tent.