What is it like to ski Sun Cups?

[Love the Sierra]

I have five days blocked off my calendar for a trip this week. I can’t believe it, Noaa is saying blue skies!!! WOW!!
I plan to base camp at Mosquito Flat and hike/tour around for three or four days into Little Lakes Valley, Ruby Lake, maybe up to Mono Pass for views and whatever else we feel like doing. No speed, no bowls or steep downhill skiing for this girl. Strictly touring.No itinerary, per se, just want to go out and tour and enjoy the sun and Sierra each day.
Highs will be mid 50s so I anticipate sun cups and sticky snow. What’s going to be easier and more fun, snow shoes or skis? Whereas I have skied spring conditions and I know what to expect, I have never skied sun cups. I have snowshoed sun cups and had the joy of postholing with full pack and snowshoes. AHHH! That’s why I’m asking. On the other hand, if I do not have snowshoes, would I be able to get up, and of course there is always that difficult down, from Ruby or Mono Pass?
I cannot put snowshoes onto my duckbilled ski boots so no way to take both unless I take two pairs of boots. …On the other hand, the road is open to the pack station, so why not? I got tails for my snowshoes, hopefully that may help the postholing but makes them heavy! Definitely bringing crampons in any case, lows will be in the low 30’s. NOAA IS TELLING ME PERFECT CONDITIONS!! Can’t wait!!!!!!!

So, should I carry the extra nearly 10 pounds and have both snow shoes and skis? (Doable since it is such a short backpack and worth it for a great day or two skiing Little Lake Valley.) Skis only and maybe not be able to do much more than Little Lakes Valley? Just take snowshoes since Little Lakes Valley will be covered in sun cups and that is miserable to ski in? (I guess that last one is the real question.)
THANK YOU for your input!!!

[c9h13no3]

Uh, that's kind of a long post with a lot of questions, but the answer is: Skiing sun cups is very bumpy :| However, skis smooth out smaller sun cups, so it's still more fun than walking.

The Sierra got a bit of a refresh in places, looked like 4-5" in Onion Valley. Places that got the most new snow will have the smoothest surfaces. Steeper terrain also will sun cup less. So this time of year, I'm usually looking for steep terrain that got some new snow, with little flat on the approach.

The snow will usually freeze without air temps dipping below 32F.

I wouldn't carry both snowshoes and skis, ever.

I wrote a little blog post about planning spring ski tours you might find interesting.

[Harlen]

Good question Aura. I posed a similar query after flailing along a sun-cup-ridden surface up in Humphreys Basin in mid-June of 2017:

I wrote:

.... Paul, the great believer in skiing and more skiing, should tell us what the best ski equipment is to handle mile after mile of sun cups. my longer, skinnier cross country skis worked okay as long as I aimed them across the run of the cups; small disasters would occur to me when I got the skis running parallel, falling into the cavernous troughs of "sun-valleys." Lizzie left the skiing out entirely during the hard snow early morning period, though her shorter, heavier Karhu Pavos performed better than my skinny skis. But Paul, wouldn't longer, and slightly wider skis be best- 195+ and 60-70cm wide?

Paul replied:

... At some point - and I suspect it's about now - skis just stop being fun if the suncups get big enough. Longer and wider ? I don't know if it would make much difference. You can thrash along, and I suppose you could also lug snowshoes and use them in the afternoon. For me, at that point it's more a case of start early and just walk while the snow is firm, and if it gets too soft then make camp. I'm sure there is some good skiable snow left on some aspects and some elevations, but I'd probably have to be a better skier than I am to take advantage of that.

Paul's last, and too humble sentence refers you back to Sam/c9h13no3, our Adrenaline junky skier. Sam makes good points about seeking out the less-cupped snow on the slopes. And I reckon he is also correct in his observation that "Skiing sun-cups is very bumpy." He has a strong science background, so he probably performed experiments to reach this conclusion. [<3 ]

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Early morning, on manageable size sun-cups. I am packing Lizzie's skis as she preferred crampons for this sort of icy-hard surface.

[paul]

I would search around online to see if you can find some recent photos, like in the last week, of Little Lakes Valley or any other spot you might hit. I would bet you can find some, and that way you can see how it really is. Based on no evidence whatsoever, my gut tells me you will hit cups but nothing gargantuan, and If I were heading out there now I'd have crampons or microspikes for the early morning, and expect to hit something skiable late morning and maybe early afternoon, and take the rest of the day off.

[Gogd]

@ Love the Sierra :
Fun and snow shoes are mutually exclusive, IMHO. So if skis and crampons can't cut it, I'd go elsewhere.

Sun cups can be skied, but only under certain conditions. If the sun cups are large, forgetaboutit! If the sun cups are frozen hard, forgetaboutit! In fact these two conditions can be very dangerous!

The problem with skis and sun cups is not enough snow contacts the ski to gain sufficient edge control when the snow is frozen. And large sun cups don't afford sufficient surface contact, even when the snow is soft. If traveling in sun cup terrain, the best bet is to use crampons and time the traveling to occur early in the day, before the snow softens. Follow your intuition, if you feel unsafe skiing sun cups it is because it is unsafe!

Ed

[Love the Sierra]

You guys are so awesome! Thank you so much!!
C9h13 You we’re right, long post for a simple question. I am just so thrilled at the prospect of seeing blue sky and mountains again! Also good point about steeper terrain not having sun cups, but for the steeper stuff, I would go with crampons and, if needed, snowshoes down in the afternoons.
GOGD, I agree, I hate snowshoes, a very necessary evil though since I like to be hiking all day, even if it is at a slow, slogging pace. Definitely will have crampons, never leave home without them unless I am assured of totally dry trail. Really good point about not having enough surface contact with the edges!
Paul and Harlan, excellent advice regarding the quality of sun ups and that not all sun cups are equal. Also, Paul, thank you for your “gut” instinct. You two made the most important point for me and that is “When it stops being fun…” I am only out there for the fun, otherwise, there is no point, I may as well work. I also agree that snowshoes are no fun but neither is only hiking for a half day. (I do not fish so, how long can you hang out in camp?)
Thank you all so much, this makes trip planning better. I suspect this will end up a mix of car camping and day hiking and maybe a night or two backpacking.
Maybe I will make it a hunt for big creek, turned roaring river, flows. Not for crossing, of course, but just to see them.

[Harlen]

The route up to, and then through the Little Lakes Valley is one that lends itself to pulk/sled hauling. I bet you are already up on this system Aura, but if not, it can be as simple as attaching a rope to the front of a plastic kiddie sled. Put all the heavy stuff into the sled, and you're off, nice and light. The problem with the simple rope technique will become apparent on the downhills, when the sled will chase you down, clip you in the heels, and ruin your fun and games. If you have a partner, she/he can attach string to the back of the sled, and hold it back. Hope you have a great time! Ian.

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Our new version, with bamboo poles instead of the rope. Mosquito Flat, Little Lakes Valley.

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LLV. The boys up by Box Lake, I think.

[Love the Sierra]

Thanks Ian. I researched getting or making a pulk which I thought would be great since Jas is a really good mushing dog. She just doesn’t quit on steep hills. She puts that little booty into low gear, head down with all of her weight into her chest harness, and springs off with both hind legs simultaneously in a very powerful gait.
However, there is always downhill… I have skied up to mosquito flat and I can only imagine coming down that road with a sled tripping me up. It would be bad since that snow gets almost too hard and icy to use your edges.
In the end, for better or worse, I am doing a complete about face and going to Cottonwood. We leave on Sat. It is kismet, they just opened the road to about .75 before the parking lot. Jas and I did that backpack in April or May of 2021 and the trail conditions were delightful. I am hoping to have a great time and post a fun TR for all of you to enjoy. (Though I dare say, for some reason, I don’t think people like my TR’s much. Maybe I am just too boring, not enough off trail adventure.)

[Gogd]

I hate snowshoes, a very necessary evil though since I like to be hiking all day, even if it is at a slow, slogging pace... ..I also agree that snowshoes are no fun but neither is only hiking for a half day. (I do not fish so, how long can you hang out in camp?)

I agree, my summer hikes generally don't get into camp until about 5pm. I don't do big miles, I just like to have time for the side trips, distractions, naps and conversations with passersby. During the colder season, it is almost imperative to get over passes before noon, as the snow pack is generally less cohesive and more subject to slab releases. But I like the ski season, so we often start out very early - coffee at 3am early. But this time of year first light is 5:30 so that isn't so bad! The same early start concept can be applied to avoiding mushy sun cups. The whole day gets shifted four to six hours earlier than summer hiking routines, but still has about the same amount of time in transit. If you are less adroit with a map and compass, it helps to schedule trips with nighttime travel to coincide with the lunar cycle.

One year I poked my skis over Cottonwood Pass to find sun cups as far as the eye could see. NOPE! So we backtracked and tried New Army Pass, with the same conditions down into Rock Creek to the west as those seen at Cottonwood Pass. We ended up base camping near South Fork Lakes. The Cottonwood Lakes region has plenty of easy terrain, and of course all the fun one can stand on the steeps of the Sierra Crest.

Ed

[Harlen]

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Cottonwood Lakes.


Love the Sierra should be camping somewhere in Cottonwood Lakes right now-- the lucky __ __ __ ___! Happy sun-cupped trails to you Aura; we really hope the trip went well. The Foxtail Pine forest, and reedy green (now white?) lake landscape there is a paradise, and so, for us, whatever piece of gear that gets us in there to enjoy it is gratefully valued. I am writing in defense of the maligned snow shoes. I reckon they serve a great purpose, filling the niche between the elegance of sking and cursed horror of post-holing with a pack!

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Foxtail Pines.

Was it you Paul who said: "I use the skis to get into the mountains, and not the other way around." We feel the same about the snowshoes-- the main goal is to be out there, and snowshoes have taken us all over the wintery Sierra, and so we view them as a good solid cousin of the skis. We reserve our hatreds (not too strong a word) for "postholey snow," and for the sticky snow that can load the base of a ski to the point of utter uselessness! In my experience, this happens less with snowshoes, and when it does occur, the snowball is more easily removed by aggressive smacking with the trekking poles. Snowshoes are also simpler to use-- no bloody skins, no fiddling into the bindings, and they are lighter, and way easier to pack than skis.
So there. Ian and Lizzie.